Impactful Mind Skills for Moments of Change and Uncertainty with Cosima Laube and Sofia Katsaouni

So first of all, Sofia, do you want to say a few words about yourself, what you do and who you are?

Yeah, I would be happy to.

Thank you.

Yeah, so I’m Sofia.

I originally come from Greece and I actually am right now here visiting my parents, but I live in Finland.

And what I do professionally is I recently started calling myself a human systems coach, because that resonated way much more for me than what that actually means is I work with individuals, teams and organizations, supporting them and guiding them towards more effective ways of working, more human-centric work environments with the goal, of course, of building valuable, meaningful products.

Yeah, and Cosima, can you say a few words about yourself?

Yeah, sure.

Yeah, basically, I’m also working with human systems and with humans in the systems.

So I guide people in organizations, be that management teams or product and service teams.

And I also work one-on-one with people in coaching and in mentoring partnerships.

Sometimes I also say I’m like, yeah, specializing in soft skills for the hard problems.

So, yeah, that’s me.

Yeah, thanks a lot.

So this is another episode that is sort of influenced by the HRMeets Architecture Conference, where Cosima will present about architecture in action, impactful mindsets for tech leaders.

And Sofia will talk about riding the roller coaster of change, turning uncertainty into growth.

And there is a discount code for 10% off, which is AMA_SAIS_10.

And, yeah, so, and the idea of this episode was to sort of mix the subjects of those two talks together and have a conversation about this.

And I think it quite neatly fits into the last few episodes that talked about these things like communication, things that you might consider soft skills.

And I really like how you said that it’s about working on the human side of the systems, which I think is a very good way of describing what we are discussing here.

And I think that’s what software architects do.

So first question would be, how do you define psychological flexibility and why is it crucial for tech leaders and HR practitioners?

So, Cosima, do you want to say something about that?

Yeah, yeah.

Psychological flexibility is one of the core concepts that I like to use for motivating also why those intangible soft skills are a thing for us tech people.

It’s not to mix up with psychological safety.

I often see that it’s mixed up.

It’s a concept that was coined by Stephen Hayes, that’s one author that could be known to some people because he also wrote some popular books, not just like the psychological science stuff.

It’s a personality trait we all sort of have.

I like to think about like a mental muscle.

So the trait is that we are aware of the present moment and of ourselves, that we take authentic actions and that we are sort of adaptable.

And that sounds pretty, I would say, optimal.

And we obviously all know that it’s not that optimal, that our human brains often get in our way.

And there’s a nice acronym, which is called FEAR.

That means we are often fused with our thoughts so that we are too tightly coupled with them, taking them for reality that we evaluate all the time.

And that’s very human and also useful, but all the time is it useful?

And that we are also avoiding certain situations.

For example, the classic, yeah, we don’t have conflict in our teams.

We don’t want to talk about conflict, don’t want to address it in a healthy way.

And the R of the FEAR acronym stands for reason giving, for justifying our behavior.

And that’s all very human.

And psychological flexibility wants us to motivate, to work on our mental muscle, more accepting our thoughts and emotions, choosing a valued direction, and then also taking action and not just alone, but also in teams and groups of people because we usually work.

Yeah, not alone.

Yeah.

Sofia, anything to add in this regard?

I love the answer of Cosima and I think I would answer very similarly, just using different words.

Basically, the way I would also identify psychological flexibility would be self-awareness.

And then basically, with the self-awareness, choosing how we want to respond in certain situations.

And it’s exactly a muscle we can all train and build into our internal systems and practice very often in different occasions, both in our personal and professional life, of course.

Hmm.

Interesting that you both agree on this metaphor of a muscle.

So obviously, you know, if I sit on that indoor cycle that is right next to me, I would train that muscle.

So how do I train that mental muscle then?

Maybe I can jump in on this one.

Yeah, sure.

So maybe one way that I often encourage people I coach and people I work with is to reflect after a situation, right?

So when something happened and that something was triggered in you, that might be excitement, that might be fear, overwhelmedness, stress, anything along these lines, then taking the moment and maybe you also reacted in that situation, right?

Maybe in ways that you’re happy about or not so happy about.

You can always take a moment afterwards and reflect on the situation and be like, okay, what happened in this situation?

How did I feel?

What happened inside of me?

Why was that, right?

So I was scared, for example.

What was I scared of?

Was I scared of how I might be seen from other people?

Was I scared that I did a mistake and maybe others will judge me for this?

What does this say about myself, right?

What are the things that are important for me?

And in the case that I wasn’t happy about how I responded, okay, how would I want to respond next time?

Is there anything I wish to do now after the occasion about this situation?

And basically, with this reflecting after the situation many and many times, we train this muscle and then at some point, we can actually catch ourselves when we are in the situation.

We can realise, okay, I’m actually getting stressed right now in this situation.

I mean, what does this mean?

How do I want to respond?

And in the beginning, maybe the response is taking a bit of time, taking a break or anything like that.

Later on, as we train the muscle, we might also be able to automatically get the awareness and respond in the way we would wish, basically.

So that’s one of the things that I often work on, also on myself, but also support others to do.

I could also build on that because I really like taking the moment and also like, yeah, noticing is also taking a moment, noticing that I’m maybe in the same situation again and noticing that I’m getting scared, like you said.

So I really like also taking the really tiny moments when I’m taking the metaphor of sitting on my cycle to cycle, or I like also the metaphor of really strength training.

When I go to the gym for like three hours, once in a half a year, I might not gain that many muscles and I also might get pain.

So really taking also those little, little tiny moments and taking these training occasions.

So that’s really one thing to add here.

Okay.

Obviously, the stream is influenced by the audience.

So there is a question that I found interesting and I’m not sure how to answer it, and therefore I’m looking forward to your answer.

So Mark M asks, how do you ask and find the right questions for moments of change and uncertainty?

Is there a method for this?

I wonder if that refers to questions towards ourselves or towards others.

I don’t know if me answering with a question helps here.

Yeah, that is also something that I was wondering with what you just said.

It seems like it’s a self-improvement thing.

So how do I influence my team to do that, to become better and to work on that muscle?

Because you, Sofia, just said that you would help other people doing that.

So how do you do that in practice?

I mean, it can be many different forums.

It can be one-on-one coaching, but I don’t do one-on-one coaching with every team member I work with or with everyone in an organization.

But on the question you answered before, how can I influence others?

I think the most effective way is being the change you want to see.

So if I show up, if I express myself, if I have the courage to be like, hey, I’m arriving a bit stressed today because of this or that, or when someone shares something and I’m unsure, like, oh, I’m actually a bit conflicted right now because of this and that.

If I express myself in certain ways, other people eventually will mirror this behavior, right?

And then that spreads basically in the system, in the human system, which is called teams and organization.

And then, of course, the same, right?

When coaching people individually, it’s not every, you don’t coach everyone in the organization, but these two or three people then will also behave in certain ways and these will act as a good, as an example to others and some will basically naturally follow and this will spread.

I think that’s a very good point and it sort of means that you have to sort of watch your behavior and see that you are, well, doing what you preach.

And yeah, that is probably something that quite a few leaders could profit from.

There is a question by, or a comment, not sure how you want to respond to that, by Happy Tree from YouTube, which is, and he or she says, I would assume that as a team leader skill, you have to make it equivalent to compassion.

You have to feel the vibe of the team.

Would you agree?

First, I would say that compassion is more like, yeah, seeing myself in the shoes of the team.

I’m not sure about feeling the vibe because I cannot feel your vibe, for example.

I can just make assumptions.

If you smile, I can think you might be happy, but you could also totally pretend something.

Or if you do like this way, I could think maybe he or she is not engaged, but maybe this is not the thing.

So I would say also more walking the talk, like Sophia said, being an example.

Also, if I mess up and I will mess up, also being open about that, showing that I also have failures and I can correct that, that this is human.

And also asking people and also listening to them, sort of feel the vibe and get what people are up to and what they are willing to share, how they are doing, where they maybe need some support or where there might be moments of change to link back to Mark’s question of uncertainty, where we could maybe fill in some information or hold this uncertainty and acknowledge it.

Yeah.

I mean, one thing that I can’t resist to say is that there is a certain person who says that empathy is the biggest weakness that he sees.

And I’m quite happy that we seem to have people who assume quite the opposite, because I’m not sure how that person came to that conclusion.

So what role does self-awareness play in effectively navigating change, both personally and as a leader?

I think you sort of answered that one already, didn’t you, in a way?

Yeah, I would think so.

It’s basically what we both said in the beginning about having the self-awareness, which then gives us the opportunity to respond rather than just react in situations.

So more concerning this thing about uncertainty, are there any concrete examples of how embracing uncertainty has led to positive outcome in your experience?

Because, I mean, obviously, uncertainty is something that is probably rather perceived as a threat, isn’t it?

So how can you make that a positive experience?

So I can add a couple of things.

But before answering the question, actually, because very often, and I had this also myself in the past, when I was hearing the phrase embracing uncertainty, somehow I thought, oh, I should be happy with uncertainty.

Embracing means I’m happy with it.

I’m okay with it.

And now I realize I don’t think that’s the case.

Uncertainty is obviously scary for us people, many of us, stressful, overwhelming.

So I don’t anymore see this phrase as we are hugging it and we are happy with it.

It’s more about, like, I’m aware uncertainty is part of life, and I have figured out ways and trained muscles to be able to navigate it.

So to me now, I kind of make this equivalent to navigating uncertainty rather than embracing it.

Or that’s what it means for me.

I’m not sure how that resonates with you, Cosima, if you want to share any thoughts.

Yeah, I really like that.

I often have the word accepting, but accepting could also be like embracing, like being okay with it.

And yeah, I totally can follow your thoughts.

Like navigating, I really like that because, yeah, sometimes the water is rough, sometimes it’s flat, but it’s there, the uncertainty.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I really like that thought because, I mean, agile software development and software development in general means that you have to somewhat deal with uncertainty.

And I think it’s a very good point to say that you don’t need to be happy about it.

It’s rather the, as you said, it’s rather something that you’re scared of and that you might want to, that you have to deal with.

And I think being clear about that is a very good advice and a very good point.

And it’s one of those things, I mean, you can’t be happy about uncertainty, can you?

Because it feels uncomfortable anyways.

So I think that’s a very good point.

Which basically means that there is no such thing as a positive outcome of uncertainty.

It’s just that you somehow have to deal with it, and it’s an emotional problem.

Is that what you’re saying?

I think growth can come out of it, which I consider a positive thing myself, at least.

Like expanding as a person, that’s what I mean, growth, right?

So learning new things, realizing new things about oneself, like expanding your self-awareness.

And then basically this giving the spectrum of all the options of what you want to do with this, right?

So that’s at least one of the positive things I have experienced myself and seen in others.

So it’s again about training that muscle, I would say.

Yeah.

And I also would say that one positive outcome could be if we assume we need to navigate uncertainty together, then I would say, let’s make smaller steps.

So like in a foggy environment, I would not like drive at 130 kilometers per hour, but I would navigate on site.

So I make smaller steps.

And that also gives some sort of more flexibility to then, yeah, steering.

And maybe even if it gives more satisfaction because we walk actually the smaller steps and see our progress.

And then also we might reduce the uncertainty by having walked already a certain path and knowing what’s behind us.

And that could also then maybe to clearing up the situation and clearing up the fog, maybe if I stay in that metaphor.

Which perfectly translates to a child’s software development and baby steps and these kinds of things.

So, yeah, what a coincidence, right?

Right.

And exactly that.

It’s while training this muscle, you basically train all these things you need for product development, right?

Experimentation, small steps, feedback loops, all these things, right?

It’s exactly basically how I would summarize what Cosima said.

So there is another question by Vaishali Patel.

I hope I pronounced that correctly.

And they said, humans naturally expect their elders, whether it is parents or leadership at work, to have all the answers all the time.

And it continues here.

This is obviously not possible.

And helping people become comfortable in uncertainty, giving confidence by explaining how the uncertainty is being resolved in small steps, but being transparent.

And I think that’s actually that process, an interesting question, which is how do you deal with the problem that you’re not meeting expectations then?

Because I would argue that as a leader, you’re supposed to be the one who’s standing there and says, okay, this is the way, this is how we are going to do it.

And I’m certain that this will work out.

And you can’t do that.

So how do you deal with that?

I mean, and that’s sort of my question.

How do you deal with that?

I mean, and that’s sort of missing the role in a way, isn’t it?

So is that just something that you have to be aware of and that you have to deal with and live with?

Or is there a misconception about leadership?

What do you think?

So in my point of view, saying this is clear, and this is what we don’t know, and this is where we maybe have no idea and we need to find out what is clear and what might be uncertain or might stay uncertain is already a sort of leadership and of clarity and also showing a path.

It’s not having all the answers as in we have all the facts and we know everything, but knowing and acknowledging that there is something we don’t know is in my point of view already something a leader should do.

Okay, so in a way you’re saying that it’s wrong to assume that leadership means that you have I think it has a lot to do with how we define leadership, so I also wouldn’t define it as a person that knows everything, because then why are you hiring all these very expert people in their field if you know everything, right?

What’s the point?

So I see a leader as a person that, of course, provides guidance and clarity to the extent that they can, but they’re also the people that can set up the environment and say, hey, everyone, this is where we need to go.

Let’s figure out how to get there.

Let’s put all our brains together and the expertise that each one of us have using the collective intelligence to figure out how we are getting there, right?

So that’s more how I see it as bringing the people together, setting the environment for this conversation to happen.

Which is probably a more sound definition of leadership, I would argue.

So Amita Schleyer, they said, lovely to seeing and hearing from you.

Have you encountered a situation where someone’s challenges at managing emotions around risk and uncertainty at work got too big?

Where someone’s challenges at managing emotions around risk and uncertainty at work got too big, so couldn’t cope with these emotions around risk and uncertainty?

I’m just thinking about it myself.

I don’t know.

At least they wouldn’t display it, I guess.

I mean, if a project is risky or if there is a company that is really in dire straits, then there is obviously a huge risk.

But people usually don’t show that, I would argue.

I’m trying to think what too big means in this case.

And of course, we all have different definitions.

What I’ve seen is that we all cope very differently with very big changes.

The last few years, I’ve experienced quite a few layoffs, as many of us maybe.

But maybe not, I don’t know.

But I’ve seen people coping with this, even during, right before they have the clarity who stays, who goes.

But also after, very differently.

Some people take some more space.

Other people take some more space and are out of work a bit more, because they need to process and figure out next steps.

Other people just code a lot all day, because that’s how they like to process this.

They prefer to just work, because that gets their mind away.

So I’ve seen people coping with it differently.

But I don’t know if it’s, yeah, I don’t know if that answers the question.

Yeah, I mean, thinking about it, I would argue that quite a few people quit their jobs because they couldn’t cope with the emotions that they have to go through at the workplace.

That’s at least something that I could imagine.

Yeah, I would also imagine too big either going away or burning out could be something.

And also, I work with people who, for example, shared examples that their leader were too transparent, for example, with all the risk and the uncertainty.

So providing not any guidance or giving all the uncertainty to the team.

And that could also be too big in my point of view, so that you couldn’t classify and you couldn’t label what’s uncertain and what maybe is not yet okay to communicate, because it causes more uncertainty than it gives clarity.

So stuff that could also be too big, yeah.

Yeah, interesting to sort of protect people from problems that they can’t really deal with, and that might appear too big to them.

Yeah.

So Felix has a good comment, or an interesting comment, I would argue.

It’s always interesting that in a professional setting, visible emotions are seen as a problem, and only weak emotions.

So he put that in quotes, weak emotions like fear and sadness.

If you get angry, everyone is fine with it.

And he adds, and of course, it’s seen different for men and women.

So anything you want to say about that?

Yeah, I can totally see that as well, because usually we label, and that comes in also the judging, the evaluating all the time that our brains do, like the good emotions and the so-called bad ones.

So being excited, being passionate, this is the good ones.

But please don’t be angry, or not everybody should be angry.

Don’t be sad.

Maybe if a project is canceled, or we pick a different tech stack, or that you maybe need to change a team.

But the emotions are, it’s like a color palette, I would imagine them.

And they just are, and we cannot numb them selectively.

We can, of course, but we need to pay a price for that.

So to manage and cope differently then.

So here’s an interesting thing.

You just said that getting angry is not okay, or is seen as a problem, while Felix actually said getting angry is something that people are fine with.

So I think it’s interesting that you seem to have different opinions about that.

So is it okay to be angry?

Is that something that people consider okay behavior?

I would go with, sorry, I want to say there are two different things.

It’s different to feel angry.

That’s totally okay and valid.

Every emotion is valid.

What might be not okay is how you react.

So how you behave, right?

So if I, yeah, I don’t know what, like if I behave with violence, either verbal or physical, that’s not okay.

Just because I’m angry, that’s not justified, at least in my mind.

So behaviors can be not okay, but every emotion is valid, anger included.

Okay, so what you’re saying is it’s not the emotion, it’s rather that someone who is angry and behaves aggressively, that this is not okay and that this is a problem.

And I would actually totally agree.

And I want to add this one thing, because I keep talking about that example.

So I’ve read this book about The Soul of a New Machine, which is about a computer that has been designed by the end of the 70s.

And they seem to have made most of the decisions in shouting matches.

And I don’t see how that is a good idea.

And I believe, but I’m not sure, I mean, maybe you have a different opinion about that.

I believe that this would probably not be tolerated these days, which I think is a good idea.

So and that is why, you know, that aggressive behavior, I think, doesn’t make any sense and is really a problem.

And I couldn’t, I mean, I probably couldn’t stand it to sit in a room where two probably men would shout at each other to come to some kind of conclusion.

So Don Mack, also YouTube, has had a great talk so far.

Thanks.

How do you go about creating an environment in which people feel empowered to discuss change and uncertainty?

So you already said one thing, which is that you should be a role model for that as a leader.

So that’s obviously something that you already said.

Anything else?

Yeah, I would also strongly advocate for using sort of events you might already have, like I’m thinking about the retrospective, which is not very, yeah, high in status, I would say, in some teams and organizations I work with, because maybe we don’t have time.

So then it’s about the pausing we already had and taking the time to notice and also really having a good facilitation there where it’s okay to also talk about non-product, non-service, non-tangible stuff, but to have really conversations there, also listening to each other and also to give room to each other.

So there might be people who talk a lot, people who might not feel comfortable to talk, but maybe they have ideas and opinions.

And yeah, to also leverage them and bring them to the table.

Additional to the retrospective, which I love as a thought, is also creating other spaces, right, if necessary to talk about these different topics, which of course can also be optional, because not everyone might be up to talking about change and uncertainty, and that’s okay, or not everyone might be ready.

So it can be spaces that are optional.

And another thing can also be offering to listen.

And I don’t think you need to be a coach necessarily to do that.

So I have done it as a coach, giving the option in situations of big changes in organizations, say, hey, folks, I know this is difficult.

If anyone needs to talk, we can have a one-on-one and I can listen.

But it can be also in the teams listening to each other, being there for each other, right?

So creating such support spaces in smaller groups that feel safer also, because if it’s your team, it’s people you know, you hopefully feel comfortable with.

So you can create this unofficial, informal space.

I think it’s interesting how sort of the answer is in a part, at least already in the Scrum Guide, right?

Because they talk about retrospectives.

It’s just that we have to take them seriously in a way.

So Don Mac asked another question, which is a follow-up.

They ask, do you have any advice with this?

So how to create an environment which people feel empowered to discuss change and uncertainty?

So how do you do that with people who are neurodivergent?

So I’m by no means an expert in that field.

Things I know that are, yeah, like I said, providing different channels, like, for example, providing the agenda up front.

If you have a formal space, giving the time to prepare, providing different channels to, yeah, contribute.

Also things like sitting there and being present is not for everybody, but maybe sketching stuff or fiddling with stuff is professional as well.

And also asking the people, what do they need?

If I know about somebody who has other needs than my brain has, asking, what do you need to, for example, contribute or to be comfortable?

Or like, I would ask somebody, what would you like to drink if we have a two-hour meeting on site?

So why not ask, what else do you need?

So to be comfortable.

It makes a lot of sense to me.

So it depends.

Let me try to translate that.

Every person tests whether you can trust someone else.

Everyone tests the person who they are in contact with, how they react to specific tests.

Would you agree?

Is that something that you see in human behavior?

I mean, obviously, if you trust a person and then you notice that you can’t trust that person, obviously, you will change your behavior.

I think what is interesting about this one set is that you actively test other people, whether you can trust them.

Is that something that people do?

I would say that depends on the person, right?

Because we all have different experiences and backgrounds.

So if someone, for example, past experiences they had is trusting someone, sharing a lot, and then this person shared with other people, then they might be way more closed up now and moving forward when sharing something or not feeling comfortable with it, while there are other people that never had such experiences, but maybe the opposite, and are going with default trust, except if you prove otherwise, kind of.

So I think it’s not, yeah, it kind of depends on the person.

And I have experienced both people in my career so far.

Yeah, which was sort of, I think, a very good answer, because it basically says that every human is different, and it takes humans different things to trust each other.

And what that person describes might be something that feels natural to that person, but other persons might behave differently.

Yeah, so I think that’s that.

Let me see what else I have.

Okay, so what are some practical strategies for developing mental resilience when facing rapid technological change, organizational shifts?

So we have these retrospectives.

I think that was some advice that you gave about how to react to a situation.

Do you have more other advice?

I mean, I can totally see how you, how emotions can easily take over once you realize that you’re in the middle of, well, a specific situation, like, you know, a huge layoff or a huge reorganization where people, where things become very, really uncertain and hard.

So is there anything, then, any advice for such situations?

I can share one thing that I realized from my personal life, because that’s basically also how my talk came up to be, because basically the last year has been quite a few major changes.

I changed country, I moved to Finland, I’m a bonus parent, and I lost my job.

All that within four months.

I think that’s a pretty decent amount of change.

Yeah, you could say that.

I think we could evaluate that.

One of the things I realized is even in situations where you go through some major changes, which you also don’t necessarily have control over, right?

So, for example, a layoff, not necessarily control over, is that find your constant.

There is something that is stable.

There is something that is constant.

This might be certain things you have trained in yourself, so this muscle we talked about earlier, right?

Or you knowing what are things that are helping you, that are grounding you.

This can be, I don’t know, workouts or going for walks in the forest or whatever works for each one of us.

And other things is support that we can have from people around us, right?

So this can be your teammates, if we’re talking about work, or a coach or your manager.

This can be your friends or family in personal situations, right?

But there are always some constants, and you also being able to identify those and connect to those can help you in major change situations.

Yeah, I really like that because when I was thinking about the question beforehand, I was thinking about the process, how to find exactly something like that out, like noticing that there’s major change and then acknowledging it.

So it’s hard, it’s stressful.

And then also asking yourself, what do you need right now?

And that could perfectly be something that gives sort of a constant.

And then also thinking about how you can make that real right now.

So maybe you cannot, for example, go for a workout right now, but you can maybe go for a walk or do something smaller, and then also navigate with that help through that change and through that shift.

So here is another question.

And I think that’s actually a good point also concerning software architecture and so on.

So how can leaders balance the need for stability with the desire for innovation and growth in their team or organization?

Which sort of says that you can only have so much innovation and growth in your team that there is sort of an upper limit, and that sort of the natural thing is stability, and you somehow have to balance those two.

So is that true?

Is that something that you have to take care of?

When do you do too much change?

I would say it also depends on the people and the context what too much change is.

First thing would be asking what for we want to grow or what for we want to innovate.

So everything that’s not stability, asking what for do we do that?

Also, how would we notice progress?

Is it sort of finished?

So to also not have tens of thousands of initiatives, that would be one thing I would expect leaders to do.

I think that’s a very good point, because what you’re saying is it’s about the goal.

It’s not about whether you want to have stability or uncertainty.

It’s just that you have to reach a certain goal, and then that might mean that you have to have a certain amount of stability or uncertainty and to sort of not limit uncertainty by itself, but rather think about whether it’s really useful.

And I think that’s a very good point.

And just last week, I was in a meeting where we were discussing the headless chicken mode.

And here is a fun fact, even though that might be a little bit, how should I put it, a little bit weird.

So there was a chicken who actually lived, who was beheaded and lived for 18 months.

So you can have literally a headless chicken mode.

And that chicken became quite famous.

So sorry about that.

I know what I’m googling after this, I guess.

Yeah, it’s a very good story.

Sorry about that.

So anything to add, Sofia?

You were about to say something before I wandered off to this horrible topic.

Yeah, I think it’s related also to this question, also what Cosima said earlier about bringing clarity in moments of change, right?

So there are many unknowns, very likely, but there are some things we know.

So also bringing those up and saying, hey, that’s what I know.

Let’s figure out the rest.

So that could also be very valuable.

We mentioned it earlier.

So it depends.

I had another question.

If you’re in a problematic situation, always start in the team where you yourself are. impact, then there’s nothing you can do.

So to start, that seems somewhat logical, I would argue.

Yeah.

So if you can have impact, of course, I would say start and then also maybe see if you have enough impact.

So I could imagine if our impact as a team is limited and we need maybe to talk to other teams or to management if there’s like that division in the company.

And we could then also put our energy endless in.

We think we do something and we do something, but we are then more in the hamster wheel.

So also to find that spot where it’s good enough and where we need to maybe include other people.

Or is it beyond our realm and we need to maybe hand it over to other people and point to the problem?

Yeah.

Yeah, I have to admit that I like how both of you and also the episode overall is discussing about what you yourself can do differently, because I feel quite, I don’t know, for some reason in the last few months, I had the impression that quite a few, at least technical people say, OK, there is this decision that has been made by management and that’s it.

And what they are sort of missing is that I think there are quite a few things that you can do.

I mean, if there is a technical decision that management made, you can question it, you can make it obvious or you can discuss it with management.

There are feedback and you can give feedback and so on and so on.

And I found it interesting how that is often not followed up.

And I discussed it with another person and he said that, well, as a consultant, so I’m obviously a consultant, this is what I’m paid to do, like point out that this is wrong and, you know, provide feedback about it.

And therefore, I’m still wondering whether, how shall I put it, in particular as a technical leader, whether they really understand the rule or whether I’m missing the point.

And, you know, they become dissatisfied with management decisions and they affect those management decisions and they are always wrong.

And then they at one point stop caring.

And that’s a natural thing to do.

But still, I feel that they could do so much more.

So and, you know, in this episode, we seem to suggest or we don’t think that we discuss how you we seem to be really focused on how you can improve yourself and not reach that point where you say, well, this is just something that they did and they need to change.

So I think that’s really good.

And it’s probably the only way to become better because it’s hard to change other people.

I think I love the example you gave.

Also, I’ve seen this from both sides to some extent as a cold supporting organizations that, as you said, tech leaders or developers or of any kind of people working in engineering are like, well, this decision was made.

What can I do?

And at the same time, I might be hearing from the CTO.

Well, nobody complained.

Nobody came to me.

So that’s that’s a very typical separate discussions I often have.

And I think it’s one thing that’s important here to acknowledge that there is also a power structure there.

Right.

So the CTO is the manager of most likely all of us, usually also my manager as a coach.

The organization is really a full under CTO or CTO if I’m an internal employee.

And sometimes it’s also natural to be afraid sometimes to to contradict or say to your manager, well, I don’t really think that was a wise decision or whatever you might want to say.

Right.

So that’s important to also to also see there.

Yeah.

And I would even add it could also somebody said you could miss the street credibility.

So if you’re part of the internal organization, it could be that an external consultant who is paid much more could just have this street credibility that they might have seen so much more.

And their advice could be exactly the same that my.

But yeah, it’s it’s seen as more worthy.

And then.

When we are in our episode today, it could be some work to do for the manager, for example.

Why don’t people come to me?

Do I listen to them enough?

Do I provide really the space?

Am I really interested in what they are bringing to me or am I just showing like a kale?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think there’s a very important and interesting point there, which is maybe and I’m not sure whether you said that explicitly.

It’s rather implicit that as a tech leader, well, you’re a leader.

So therefore you’re higher up the hierarchy and you know, nobody goes to the CTO just like that.

So obviously, the situation that you just described where, you know, the CTO says nobody complained.

Well, the explanation could be quite easy, which is nobody showed up because nobody dared to.

And that’s not just because that’s not because the CTO is such an evil person or someone who is really, you know, is the personality of the CTO, but just rather because it’s well, the CTO.

So it is someone who is higher up the hierarchy and it’s harder to talk to that person.

And I’m not sure why people are not aware of that, because I think it’s quite logical that people don’t just go to the CTO and say, well, you know, you misbehaved.

Well, you know, you made that mistake and misbehave is not the right expression.

You know, this is something that I have some feedback on.

And, you know, this is not something that I would agree or share because it takes courage and you have to and maybe even you should ideally be go there prepared and so on.

And here also past experiences play a role as well, right?

So you might be now working with a CTO that’s very open to this feedback and takes it very nicely and can have this conversation.

But if the five previous CTOs you had were more authoritarian figures and so on, again, that’s something you need to relearn that now that’s OK.

In the past, it wasn’t.

Yeah, and it’s also that what I noticed in those situations is that such people then say, OK, nobody gets punished for speaking up, but punishment can have different forms.

It’s not it’s not just about, you know, becoming, you know, losing their job or becoming denoted in their job.

But it just might be something that is on the social level.

And, you know, that that that person is the person who always complains, these kinds of things.

And that’s also a form of punishment that isn’t that that obviously obvious.

So Don Mack asked another question, how do you manage to stay motivated and not jaded as a coach if there is a lot of change?

So, for example, that’s what he or she said in the next chat, for example, change or uncertainty that is imposed and you don’t agree with.

So how do you manage to stay motivated and not jaded as a coach?

Pushing through changes that you might even disagree with.

Seems we have quite a few very tough questions.

Those are definitely tough questions.

Share a couple of thoughts.

I don’t know if that’s really an answer, but or I can ask concretely.

But I guess I’ve learned through the years working as a coach.

Obviously, when I was a junior, it was a bit I was taking things a bit more like, you know, it was harder than now.

But I think it’s also understanding the room of influence you can have.

Right.

We cannot influence everything or control everything as coaches and have maybe as much impact as we want, but we can have an impact.

Right.

And it might be in a more smaller circle that maybe we would wish, but you still can.

Right.

So even if you don’t agree with a certain change or it’s very difficult, maybe you cannot change that specific decision, but you can at least support the people or the teams through this change the best way you can.

And for me, at least being able to support and being able to to make it a little bit better for the people I work with is enough motivation for me nowadays to be able to at least see, OK, that’s what I can actually do.

And also choosing battles.

We cannot always choose all of them.

OK.

Choosing battles is good advice.

And that you say that you want to help the humans.

I think that’s also a good, very good point, a very ethical point.

And I think.

Yeah, I would add also visualizing it.

So I had a really hard time when I started out as a full time coach to really choose my battles wisely.

So one thing that helped me is also like circles of control from Stephen Covey, which is pretty well known, like having what I have in my control, what I can influence and what is really out of my reach.

So some things that are changed in the company might really be out of my reach or maybe also not be in line with my values, but I can still sort of support them, but I cannot contribute.

So this would one would be one thing.

And also really making the progress and also the little steps I can do transparent to me, for example, in form of like journaling about them, writing them down or having a smile file with feedbacks from people I worked with that I made an impact to really see that I stay motivated and also know when the balance tips.

So when it’s time, maybe to really say, OK, this is not a place for me anymore.

That could also happen, I would say.

And I was listening to you.

One other thing is we coaches are very often the people providing support.

It’s very important to also ask for help every once in a while when we need it.

Right.

Because we don’t feel our batteries.

How can we support others?

So that’s also important, realizing when we need support, when we need to talk to someone, when we need someone to listen to us so we can keep supporting in situations like this.

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

Lots of good advice there.

I was I was about to ask whether there is there is a situation where you would walk away because what what the question sort of implies is that you don’t agree with the change.

So at one point you need to walk away.

But that’s what Kusuma already sort of answered.

So that’s that’s that’s perfect, I think, and was already answered.

So, oh, I think that’s that’s a question that I can’t resist to ask, which is in the original set of questions that we had.

So how do you recommend balancing technical expertise with the development of mind skills or emotional intelligence for tech leaders?

Which sort of means is it rather is tech leaders some rather something that depends on hard skills or soft skills in a way, right?

I would say go ahead, go ahead.

Yeah, I would say tech leaders should have or a good tech leader in my point of view is somebody who has the hard technical skills and product skills and also the softer people communication skills.

And I would say and we already said that, like starting small, but start finding out where you have a gap or where you want to grow and then go there and try it out and learn stuff.

And if it’s hard, it might be an indicator to do it more often to, for example, do a collaborative modeling session, for example.

So and see what’s coming up and see if there might be hard discussions and how do you feel afterwards, for example, and reflect on that.

So, yeah, that would be something.

Yeah, I’m thinking of.

Exactly.

I think it’s exactly as you said, starting small.

And I do believe that both skills, right, the technical leaders work with humans, so they need to work on the human system aspect as well, not just the technical.

And you can just do that in the spaces you are already.

Like, how do you show up in the retrospective of your team?

Are you curious to listen of what the fellow team members of yours have to say, or are you going with very specific opinions and thoughts that you are not open to be challenged?

How do you show up in a technical or architectural discussion?

Do you have certain things you want to drive and or are you open also to listening to other options, other opinions and maybe trying something different than you originally had in mind?

Right.

So try these human skills in the spaces you are already in and see how that and then reflect.

Basically, we said this earlier.

How does that work for you?

I think that’s very good advice to to to start developing these these mind skills or emotional intelligence.

However, I know I’m not sure I’m I will try to provoke the two of you.

So so here is here is something or, you know, I could I could play the advocatus diaboli.

So here is something that I could say.

I could argue that.

So if you’re a tech leader, you probably have been, you know, software developer or something like that.

So you have some technical expertise.

You know what software is, how code works in general.

And I would argue that.

It’s much more important to have the mind skills or the emotional intelligence because you are a leader now.

And therefore, I put I would put the emphasis on those points and not on the technical expertise.

So the question, how do you recommend balancing technical expertise with the development of mind skills or emotional intelligence?

I would argue that at the end of the day, the technical expertise probably doesn’t really matter because there might be better technical experts on every technical thing in your team than yourself.

So it’s the other thing that really matters.

Would you agree?

Or is that too radical a statement?

I think we need to be a bit careful and also aware of the environment some people might be operating because, again, we talked about the leader type earlier, right?

So in my mind, the tech leader is someone that’s setting the environment for the team, is responsible for the growth of other people.

That’s how I see it.

But if you have a manager and you’re a tech lead, that doesn’t necessarily say that when one specific answers from you and is inviting you in some spaces, then.

Right, then it depends, then there you might also need to have sharpened your technical skills because that’s kind of what is expected of you and what you have been hired for, at least for some spaces.

So this is why it’s kind of hard for me to say always soft skills or mind skills are the most important.

I think it’s both and then it’s adapting in the environment you’re in.

And I would also say it depends also where you want to go to.

So, for example, given you want to be a tech leader and really incorporate the leadership aspect, even then it’s a journey, I would say.

Even then it might be hard to also say goodbye to the tech skills you build up.

You might transition maybe in some different roles until you are there and you might need to maybe also find new ways.

For example, I had one thing when I transitioned to being a software developer, to working more with people.

And it was really a phase of some years to really find the feedback in my intangible people work, for example.

You don’t have like a built system you get feedback from or users you get feedback from or colleagues you can discuss stuff with, which is pretty tangible.

I wasn’t aware of that back then.

But you need to or I would advise also to give you a transition phase, but have that thing in mind that leadership is bigger than being able to just communicate a bit more.

So, yeah.

So, agree and disagree.

It depends.

Yeah.

So, I really like those answers because they clearly say that my statement was too simplistic.

So, that’s good.

So, some concrete ideas that the audience can do tomorrow to improve.

Do you have any advice?

So, we already discussed about, you know, you can train your muscles.

Maybe one advice would be to actually do that and try to set aside some time tomorrow to reflect on the day or on some specific things that happen.

So, that might be something that I can think of.

Exactly.

And also, I can imagine that it’s a bit difficult, I guess, in the beginning for someone to do this by themselves.

So, if you have the opportunity to get support on this from a coach in your organization or another developer or someone that is very good at listening and asking these nice questions that can help you reflect, then also use that in the beginning.

Right.

So, it’s important to also ask for support in this, especially the first few times before doing it by yourself, if you have this opportunity.

A very good idea.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And also, I see it pretty often that people really have a hard time to start with the pauses and the time to really reflect.

So, one thing could be to switch off the notifications, for example, the first half hour of the day and the last half hour to really give yourself some space.

And also, you could write down three things that you appreciate, for example, or were joyful about.

And also, maybe one thing that made you sad or mad.

So, those negative emotions and see how that’s going to reflect on these.

Okay, great.

Thanks a lot.

So, I’m really looking forward to meet the two of you at Terminus Architecture in person.

And yeah, thanks a lot for answering all the questions.

Thanks a lot for joining.

And yeah, hope to see you in Berlin then at the conference and have a great evening.

Thank you.